Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Discussions on how to do facial exercises and what these exercises might accomplish.
Nonie
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by Nonie »

faraway wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:16 am She says in the end of the video that she only been doing it for a couple of days though... Either way it makes sense to relax those muscles by deep massaging. But pulling and stretching the skin? Will that not damage the skin?
Yes and no. I believe there's a method to the madness. I think if you just grip thin skin and pull hard exerting so much force, it would be like stretching a rubberband past its elasticity and that may cause damage. I have seen an exercise where skin is stretched to create resistance against which you are then to contract some facial muscles, and because the resistance is exerted in the wrong place/direction/way and the pull is so aggressive, I cringe as I imagine muscle sinews being pulled apart. :shock: And I don't think my thinking is that far from fact because the results I have seen from this have been loose muscles and flabbiness under that skin.

I think the way to do this massage safely is first to use an easy touch and to make sure you're gripping skin and muscle. Someone who doesn't have as much muscle in their forehead as you do probably may not find benefit in this. But I think of what she is doing as giving your tense muscles a deep massage.
faraway wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:16 amRegarding this tanaka massage, I agree with you that it looks kind of soft. But I was thinking that it perhaps is good to for draining the lymphatic fluid in your face.
I don't do the massage so cannot really give an opinion on its effectiveness but that is what it is said to do. There are a few discussions online about it so they may be a good place to look. I typed "Tanaka Massage Discussion" as a Google Search keyword and a few forums popped up. So try that.
faraway wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:16 amAnother thing I´ve been thinking of when it comes to my "poor facial posture" is the fact that I, in my entire life, have been sleeping on my stomach with one side of the face buried in the pillow. During sleep I guess that fluids are build up in the face. I´m thinking that this in combination with squeezing the face together might cause wrinkles and creases? Sleeping on my back could perhaps prevent the crease to become deeper and also reduce the amount of fluid that´s building up in the face during night?
Yes, sleeping on your back is definitely what most face exercise gurus recommend. But if that is hard for you, there are pillows made to ensure that you don't press your face into them should you decide to sleep on your side, such as the Save My Face Pillow or the more expensive The JuveRest Pillow. I have never used them so cannot give reviews on them. I do try to sleep on my back but I'm more comfy on my side. ;)
faraway wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:16 amNevertheless, thanks a lot for your support. I´ll definitely commit myself to Tom's program once I get the DVD.

Regards,

Faraway
You are welcome. You will love Tom's program, and if Tom is anything to go by, then you can look forward to years of looking good. Committing is key; not setting goals or expecting results by a certain deadline. Just doing the program and letting the results surprise you when they will. Happy exercising!
faraway
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by faraway »

Thanks for feedback Nonie!

When it comes to pillows and other sleeping aids, what do you think of this product? https://www.thesyla.com

I think in my case that my poor facial posture not only have to do with weak muscles but the fact that I for some reason seem to have stored fat and/or fluids in the areas above my eyebrowses. The rest of my body is very lean. Question is if this puffiness is some kind of fat storage and if so, why is it there? And most important, is it possible to get rid of it without cosmetic surgery? Will facial exercises be enough?
Nonie
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by Nonie »

faraway wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:33 pm Thanks for feedback Nonie!

When it comes to pillows and other sleeping aids, what do you think of this product? https://www.thesyla.com
It appears that works like Frownies only without the tape? While I have always considered Frownies to be more like a prop that works only while it is in place but then you take it away and "PLOP!" everything falls, I can see how they (or anything that works like them) can be beneficial to people who seem to have good facial posture while awake and able to control their facial expressions, but who seem to lose that good form when they sleep and have no control on expressions they make. Using them would ensure that the progress you are making with the good habits you are cultivating during the day are not undone by the unconscious slipping back to old habits that may happen when you're asleep. And if this product can help with sleep lines, then that's another bonus. So I don't see any harm in giving it a shot. I don't think this product by itself would solve your problem, but I do think it would be a good complement to face exercises and your conscious efforts to gain good facial posture.
faraway wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:33 pmI think in my case that my poor facial posture not only have to do with weak muscles but the fact that I for some reason seem to have stored fat and/or fluids in the areas above my eyebrows. The rest of my body is very lean. Question is if this puffiness is some kind of fat storage and if so, why is it there? And most important, is it possible to get rid of it without cosmetic surgery? Will facial exercises be enough?
First of all, I don't know why people think losing facial fat is a good thing. Vanity makes people get fat taken out of their faces because they want to look like someone they admire who has a thinner face than they. Then a few years later they are paying for fat or artificial fillers to be injected back because they quickly realize that without that fat they look so much older.

Image
Source: https://www.slideshare.net/daulatramdha ... g-face-ppt

I don't think you have fat in your forehead. Your forehead looks to me like the typical forehead of someone who gets for Botox injections to relax strong muscles that are in constant semi-contraction. Botox does not drain excess fluid or reduce fat but just paralyzes muscles so they lose the ability to stay in contraction. Since the lymphatic drainage massage is supposed to mimic what your lymph vessels normally do, you have nothing to lose by doing it, so I don't see why not. But I don't think it alone will fix your problem. I really believe that what will fix your problem is toning the other muscles of your face which are not in as great a shape as your forehead muscles, and regularly massaging your forehead muscles to encourage their relaxation. Because this didn't happen overnight, you have to be realistic and understand that massage may appear to show short-lived results right after you finish a massage; that is because you may still be tensing those muscles subconsciously, plus they have had years of training to get that way. But as your other muscles get stronger from exercise, then you will find the massage results appear to last longer because the newly strengthened muscles will now be pulling harder against the strong procerus muscle than when you first started, and thus forcing them to flatten some and hence start to smooth out your forehead..

Here are some results from face exercises on that area between the eyebrows that I hope will encourage you:

This is Robert's face before and then after two years of face exercises and you can see his forehead smoothed out, but he was doing a full program which is why I believe he got good results as all the muscles of his face attained good toned and worked together to lift and smooth his face out, making him look like the son of his former self:
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This is Andrea's forehead before and then after 10 months of face exercises--notice how deep the crease was initially but it's smoothed out some and not as noticeable:
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This is Karen's forehead before when she was beginning to get those dreadfull "11's" between her eyebrows and then after one year of face exercises where there is no hint that she was ever about to get a crease between her eyebrows:

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This is Pat before and then five weeks after face exercises when there is no sign of any crease between her eyebrows:
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This is Elaine Bartlett (Faceworks UK Founder) before and then 4 weeks after face exercises. Her 11's were just starting to show but were completely erased with face exercises
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Not sure what the time frame is for the following images but they are more examples of how face exercises can improve your problem area:

The 11's completely ironed out after face exercises:
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The procerus muscle was so strong that it shows the kind of definition you see in athletes with very toned abs where there appears to be gaps between the "packs" but with exercise that muscles softened and does not look as hard as before:
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This is Kay before and after. Her 11's creases were deep in the before photo creating sharp defined lines but in the after photo, the creases have been slowly erased and the skin flattened creating a smoothness she didn't have before:
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So you are on the right track combining massage and exercise. But most importantly, relax! Worrying about it now when you are now armed with tools to do something about it or constantly checking to see if there is any improvement are sure recipes for (1) stress, which will work against your efforts; and for (2) disappointment ("a watched pot never boils"). So be positive and trust that if others found success without having to succumb to a cosmetic surgeon's help, then you too can and will. ;)
faraway
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by faraway »

Hi Nonie!

I made a discover today. When I smile as big as I can then the line between my eyes are smoothened out. The whole forehead kind of relaxes. The tension that I, especially have at my right eyebrowse, seems to losen up a bit when I smile. I can also clearly see that there is a horizontal pull outward from the corner or my eye when I smile. My guess is that it´s contraction from the zygomatic major muscle that in turn is affecting the orbicularis oculi muscle so that it relaxes(or is it being contracted?) which in turn smoothens out the vertical line in my forehead.

This "discover" also made me think that smiling in general should have a natural relaxing effect on muscles in your face that you perhaps often contract due to whatever worries you have to deal with in daily life.

Personally I don't smile or laugh a lot. I simply don't have that natural ease to smile and laugh that some people have. So now I'm thinking that the fact that I don't smile so much perhaps have given the "worrying" muscles (procerus and corrugator) way too little resistance from counteracting antagonist muscles and, hence,they have been able to get stuck in a more contracted position.

So my conclusion is that I perhaps should try to smile more and maybe do some facial exercise that will activate the orbicularis muscle. The problems I see though is that I can't go around smiling all the time and I guess that putting a big smile on your face probably creates new wrinkles and creases.

What are your thoughts about all this Nonie?
Nonie
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by Nonie »

I think this just goes back to what I said before: your forehead muscles are stronger than other muscles on your face that don't get exercised as much; so like you say, they do not get any resistance from the weak muscles so their contraction reigns over all. As you learn to engage other muscles with exercise and as those muscles get stronger, they will play their role in resisting the pull of the procerus and thus the smoothing out you see when you smile will become more permanent.

You state that smiling all the time will cause wrinkles. Again, only if your smiling muscles get overworked at the expense of all other muscles. A good face exercise program gets all the muscles of the face to a state where they balance each other out so that lines form when you are making an expression but disappear when you stop making the expression. So if you are doing a good facial workout program, you don't have to keep smiling all the time. In time, the newly awakened muscles will catch up in tone with the procerus and create an equilibrium whereby a relaxed face will become your norm.
Tom Hagerty
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by Tom Hagerty »

Faraway, the last paragraph that Nonie wrote is important. It's the balance of all the muscles of the face that keeps the unsightly lines from forming. I think that a good program of facial exercise will help establish that balance. It will also make you aware of the tensions that develop in certain areas of the face. If you are aware of these tension areas you can learn to relax them. The photos that Nonie posted are proof that deep lines can be softened. There is no magic here; it's just physiological common sense.
lauvene
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by lauvene »

Hi Faraway,

Just wanted to follow up and see if you had any progress doing the exercises? I have similar problem to yours and although I keep it at bay with my current routine, it's still there. I'm trying to learn how to control occipitalis muscle to do the scalp exercise and seeing some success story would be really motivating.

@Nonie Hii! :) We talked a bit a while ago and your input taught me a lot. While I support your theory about exercising other muscles being helpful, I know from experience that it may be really hard to isolate these muscles and not exercise glabella and corrugators along, as they are just so strong that they take over. I learned to control mine while having face at rest so I don't frown in front of monitor etc, but I still felt them activating when I exercised, even while doing lower face evercises. It's so much easier to do if you weaken the problematic muscles first, but there's not many ways to do that, botox being the most popular one.
Nonie
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by Nonie »

lauvene wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 pm Hi Faraway,

Just wanted to follow up and see if you had any progress doing the exercises? I have similar problem to yours and although I keep it at bay with my current routine, it's still there. I'm trying to learn how to control occipitalis muscle to do the scalp exercise and seeing some success story would be really motivating.

@Nonie Hii! :) We talked a bit a while ago and your input taught me a lot. While I support your theory about exercising other muscles being helpful, I know from experience that it may be really hard to isolate these muscles and not exercise glabella and corrugators along, as they are just so strong that they take over. I learned to control mine while having face at rest so I don't frown in front of monitor etc, but I still felt them activating when I exercised, even while doing lower face evercises. It's so much easier to do if you weaken the problematic muscles first, but there's not many ways to do that, botox being the most popular one.
Hi Lauvene *waves*

Not sure, but I think the secret may be to work gently. I am not sure whose idea it was to tell people that going hard is the way to do face exercises, especially when starting off. In one of the threads on this forum, I share how I do Tom's winking exercise. I don't remember why I decided to post a video demonstrating it. Perhaps it was in response to someone saying they didn't know how not to create creases when doing it. The only time I notice my forehead joining in a lower face exercise is when I'm not concentrating hard on proper form, and when I am sacrificing good form for what I think is a better (read: stronger) contraction. I don't think it's necessary to go so hard that you end up summoning other muscles that were not invited to the party to help with a contraction elsewhere.

If you can share what lower face exercise you are doing that you find forces you to engage the upper face too, I can try to do in front of a mirror and see if the same happens to me. And if not, perhaps try to see if I can figure out a solution.
lauvene
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by lauvene »

Hey Nonie,

I never said I was working the muscles hard, in my case even gentle and focused exercising activated them. Months ago before massages I was frowning even when I was slightly yawning. It was so hyperactive that it engaged in almost every face activity. Isolating it just with the power of will, not by physically holding it in place, seemed impossible so I stopped every exercise that activated it and focused on relaxing it as much as possible first with massages while doing exercises that didn't activate it (selected Ageless ones).

My problematic exercises were for example "chin up" and "sexy beast" from Ageless. They are still "waking up" this muscle but not as much as they used to. Also, you speak from a standpoint of already having well exercised and toned face so I bet you can control it much better. I have problems controlling parts of my face, for example I can't raise my right brow alone (can raise left one without any issues). There's still a lot work to be done here.
Nonie
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Re: Lines and puffiness between eyebrows

Post by Nonie »

lauvene wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:06 am Hey Nonie,

I never said I was working the muscles hard, in my case even gentle and focused exercising activated them. Months ago before massages I was frowning even when I was slightly yawning. It was so hyperactive that it engaged in almost every face activity. Isolating it just with the power of will, not by physically holding it in place, seemed impossible so I stopped every exercise that activated it and focused on relaxing it as much as possible first with massages while doing exercises that didn't activate it (selected Ageless ones).

My problematic exercises were for example "chin up" and "sexy beast" from Ageless. They are still "waking up" this muscle but not as much as they used to. Also, you speak from a standpoint of already having well exercised and toned face so I bet you can control it much better. I have problems controlling parts of my face, for example I can't raise my right brow alone (can raise left one without any issues). There's still a lot work to be done here.
I didn't mean to imply you said you work your muscles hard. I know you did not coz I read your post. I was just stating what I have seen in face exercise discussions w/r/t people going hard and needing time to "recover" or people quitting a program because they did not feel anything. So I mentioned it in case you had fallen into that trap and so could use that tip of "less is more". If it does not apply, disregard it.

As for being able to raise one eyebrow and not the other, ditto! I can raise my right one, not my left. So having years of experience does not necessarily make one a pro at controlling her face. In fact, considering muscles are interconnected, the reason you find it hard to "isolate" muscles is because they are in such good shape and already in semi contraction that when muscles connected to the ones in shape give because muscle below are raised thus releasing the pull on the toned muscles, those strong muscles' ever so slight response to the released tension below is magnified more because their response is quick and thorough.

I don't do Ageless and so don't know those exercises you mention. But I was wondering if there wasn't a way to hold down the corrugator/glabella areas to prevent creasing while doing the lower face exercise. Or will that only make the muscles stronger? Maybe Tom knows the answer.
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